Switching Industries: Entrepreneurship Lessons from Dr. Jason Romesburg

For a start-up to succeed, you really have to put your all into it. If you’re going to be using your own money, consider going in with an investor so that you are not immediately operating from a place of debt. Learn more about the lessons Dr. Jason picked up along his entrepreneurial journey.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

0:00

all right uh today it's the pleasure to sit down and talk to Dr Jason Romesburg

0:05

how's it going man I'm good how are you good um okay so I'm gonna do a poor man's

0:11

introduction but we're gonna learn more about you and your experience uh shortly um but your practice practicing

0:18

neuroradiologists uh who unknowingly was honing your entrepreneurial skills uh

0:23

when you started at Interventional Radiology Clinic um you also are the founder of running

0:30

lights a beverage company and there have been a lot of learnings in between and so we're going to explore that and uh

0:37

excited to talk to you about your experience and your your you know crazy Venture into being an entrepreneur

0:44

well thanks for having me I'm I'm happy to be here and and share some of my

0:50

experiences and and uh hopefully it may uh help somebody along the way

0:56

absolutely and I also forgot I also forgot the very

1:01

important uh note about your bio a fellow UVA grad just gotta shout it out

1:08

go who's there you go all right so um I like

1:14

starting off with a fun question first um what did you want to be growing up as

1:20

a kid oh growing up I wanted to be Andre Agassi

1:27

yeah so they grew up playing well actually first probably Tony Hawk uh you know grew up

1:35

like in that phase with uh you know skating and and Tony Hawk was really

1:41

popular and on then I got into tennis really competitively when I was you know

1:46

probably eight by the time I was eight to you know 12 and just Agassi with his cool shoes and clothes and bright colors

1:55

and uh you know that was just he was like you know my idol so I played a lot

2:01

of tennis growing up and uh ended up going on to play for UVA but uh yeah at

2:06

the time and actually the colors and and things like that from Agassi and the 90s

2:11

and all that that still stick with me actually and and even the color funny

2:17

you bring it up because they cut some of the color schemes are flavored on our labels

2:22

I tried to uh use a kind of palette from from some

2:28

of those colors back in the 90s with like fluorescent pinks and yellows and sort of bring that purples and sort of

2:34

bring that back vibrant colors into the can um that that's kind of interesting but

2:40

yeah so I wanted to be a pro tennis player and that was kind of a semi-serious thought until uh you know

2:48

even through college but then I think in maybe High School College I started getting probably a little bit burned out

2:54

and and in college you know the the skill compared to some other people you

3:00

know I started to come to the realization that probably wasn't going to be you know the path so

3:06

um things kind of shifted and and ended up kind of deciding to go onto this path

3:12

to be ultimately a neuroradiologist but but yeah that's that's uh where it

3:17

started yeah I I I love your humility to say oh I went

3:23

from you know a Collegiate tennis player to you know neuro Radiology so I'm very

3:28

I'm very curious like what was that pivot like and why just out of my own

3:34

interest like what why you're already out neuroradiology you can say it oh

3:40

well it's kind of it's a long path to getting to that point so it certainly

3:45

wasn't something I was like oh yeah you know neuroradiology that

3:50

um you know it's tiny it was 10 years um actually after I finished College of

3:56

uh you know med school internship Radiology residency and then Fellowship so I attacked on 10 years after college

4:03

so it was like you know it evolved from the sports and the I started getting

4:08

interested in a biology major and and medicine and I sort of was appealed to

4:14

the try to incorporate those with maybe physical therapy and be like involved in sports in some way and athletes

4:22

um and that just sort of evolved into you know maybe just go ahead and apply for med school and you know I was a

4:28

little late into the game in terms of really knowing what I wanted to do so I you know spent a year after I graduated

4:35

teaching tennis and taking some extra courses in Richmond as a you know the tennis professional instructor and

4:42

um that actually you know was a great year worked with athletes that wanted to go play college tennis and

4:49

um kind of helped me now because I still am involved with the tennis instruction world but

4:55

um yeah then once I got into med school that I really fell in love with anatomy and doing little procedural things I

5:03

thought maybe surgery but ultimately Radiology had a broad scope where you

5:09

you have to know anatomy of the whole body basically to be a radiologist you you study all the Imaging you know you

5:17

image the entire body when uh when you learn Radiology you have to know all the

5:23

anatomy and that was my most interesting subjects to me in in med school and you

5:28

know dissecting in Gross Anatomy the cadaver and stuff like that was really interesting so

5:34

um and Radiology the Interventional aspects of it uh are really

5:41

um you know interesting because they're they're rapidly you know coming out with

5:46

new procedures and the things that they can do with minimally invasive techniques would just literally uh a

5:52

needle through your groin we can coil an aneurysm in your brain you know with a

5:57

micro coil and do things like that so that was just fascinating also and so it was a combination of that that put me

6:04

into Radiology path right and then um I end up doing my residency at Wake

6:09

Forest in Winston-Salem and had some really excellent mentors and teachers

6:15

that that um many of those people uh like Carol gear and Mike zapatka and

6:21

Mike Baker and they were um and Jonathan birdette they were

6:27

really good mentors for me and and so it was uh you know the people that I was

6:32

around also helped me sort of go down to the neuro path which is an additional year after uh Radiology so that was a

6:41

training that that that's kind of how it evolved and I liked the brain pathology

6:47

about the brain and the spinal cord and tumors and multiple sclerosis and all

6:52

that stuff interested me so that's kind of how it evolved into being neuro and I

6:57

did a lot of procedures um to get into the the Interventional Clinic discussion I guess if you'd like

7:05

but the uh procedures was something that interested me I did a lot of spinal interventions and things like that like

7:12

people that um had compression fractures and osteoporotic compression fractures or

7:18

cancer related tumors in the bone that cause fracture of the spine we would do

7:23

procedures where we inject cement into their vertebral column yeah to help help

7:30

their pain and stabilize the fracture we would do that under fluoroscopy which is

7:35

basically real-time x-ray visualization and so procedures like that were things

7:41

things that I learned how to do that were pretty Advanced and and I could bring to my practice when I came out and

7:47

and just so that kind of you know I built some procedures off of that and tried to develop that patient base and

7:54

referral base to um yeah to ultimately try to do those when on my own when I was out in practice

7:59

which I did yeah no that's that's awesome and I appreciate you kind of walking me through that because it is

8:06

kind of starting to connect the dots of this kind of pursuit of curiosity and saying okay this is interesting let me

8:12

lean into it and so I want to you know keep following that path because when we

8:18

we did our prep call for this you you made a statement says I was kind of an

8:23

entrepreneur and didn't realize it and so I want to get into at what point to

8:29

what experiences did you have that made you recognize that what you were doing

8:36

in you know the Interventional Radiology space was actually very entrepreneurial and like what's the thing that made you

8:43

bite the bug hmm yeah you know I didn't consider I've been out of that group now

8:50

for uh out of the Interventional Clinic that I was working in for about three

8:56

and a half years now and I probably didn't I never looked at it as entrepreneurial

9:02

in the moment um it wasn't until maybe uh about two years ago or so uh when I

9:10

was kind of exploring other things on my own and just pursuing other ventures in the meantime that that uh as I reflected

9:17

back on you know what what some of the things that interested me um in particular about it was you know

9:25

what why I would spend so much time Beyond you know the regular daytime hours trying to build this whole the

9:32

infrastructure and the referral base and and uh you know why would you do that you're already there you know for 10

9:39

hours but then um it was really this the challenge of of and the reward this is there's this

9:46

interesting balance between the a personal challenge of a skill that you have and really trying to figure out a

9:52

way that you feel like you can offer it to people and a service right and and

9:58

how do you get yourself out there to offer it that was like the barrier right like I have this skill you know you

10:04

could apply it to different things like okay somebody entrepreneur has this big idea or a product even that they've got

10:10

this like initially thing but how do you get it to people you know how do they get you get them to trust you that they

10:17

would actually you know purchase it or engage in your what you're offering so so that was really interesting because I

10:24

had to start to think about selling myself even though I didn't like to think about that way but you had to

10:30

communicate with the referring doctor let's say a an oncologist okay that treats cancer patients that would have

10:36

to they would have to refer a patient to me for me to treat their fracture like I don't as a radiologist have uh you know

10:44

the patients don't like walk they don't know about me unless their primary care

10:49

or their cancer doctor really sort of refers them to me you know it's right subspecialty

10:55

so I had to make them all like aware that this that myself and my service

11:00

exists right and that was sort of personally challenging and awkward because I had to go do presentations at

11:06

offices and sort of tell them about me and my services and and why they should

11:12

do it or consider it it was basically like a mini pitch to them about this

11:17

procedure that I could do okay so that was but then there was a positive feedback loop because uh the clinicians

11:25

liked it because I offered a really good service to them you know I would get back to them immediately their patients

11:31

would get phone calls you know I would take care of them and so that was a positive feedback loop and then the

11:36

patients loved it and they were doing well they liked the procedures that I was doing and

11:41

um you know I was doing a good job with the patients so so you know that was kind of looking

11:47

back on how um as I'm doing some of these newer things or Ventures with that I was

11:52

working with with the restaurant and now the the beverage company and stuff it's uh looking back on it was more when I

11:59

reflected that that was really was a form of entrepreneurialism in a way I

12:04

just didn't that helped prepare me for for current things that just didn't look at it that way at the time

12:10

yeah okay I I like that so um

12:16

I'm gonna I usually ask um the first action question but I'm Gonna Save it because I think that

12:21

there's um kind of a lot in the middle that I'd like to explore and so one of the things

12:27

we talked about was you know you may you made an investment you you call I think

12:33

you called it the classic doctor story you made an investment you realize that

12:39

you didn't do enough due diligence around it um kind of tell me about that experience

12:45

and what that was like yeah so this is probably about

12:51

I think about two or two or three years into private practice job um you know a group of about

12:58

15 to 20 Radiologists and um I I didn't have like much training if

13:06

any on the business side of uh you know well whether it be entrepreneurialism or

13:13

just investing in Ventures and uh how to critically look at a business plan how

13:19

to analyze um your investment opportunities you know how does that

13:25

how does that make sense with respect to other things you have going on like a huge pile of student loan debt you know

13:33

should you be taking a really high risk uh on something that you know so at the

13:38

time I was just like okay this is a no-brainer low risk right because uh to get to get some of the backstory and the

13:45

details I think will help help it make sense to explain for maybe help somebody

13:51

not make the same mistake that I made and

13:57

um so the The Venture was about a woman's Imaging facility so it was mainly focus

14:04

on mammography Services that's that was like the core of the service right and

14:09

you figure everybody needs a mammogram that you hit a certain age if you're a female not everybody but every female

14:15

when you hit a certain age based on guidelines you're supposed to you know get your mammogram so there's a level of

14:21

uh guarantee uh service there right and at the time mammography actually was

14:27

was uh really the strength of our group you know that section was doing well the

14:34

business was growing um we had really we they were very

14:40

highly reputable mammographers and that wasn't my

14:45

um specialty so I wasn't even practicing in mammography but that was always like

14:51

a carrier of the group so to speak in terms of financials and just

14:57

um overall Hospital uh clout in terms of necessity of our

15:03

group so everybody sort of um in the group I would not everybody

15:08

but a lot of people um that were more naive about it like myself just sort of had this assumption

15:15

that that um you know we're doing so well with mammography here you just take

15:20

the same model and put it in a different physical location and it's guaranteed to

15:25

work right right like I'm not even gonna look at that business plan I'm not even

15:32

going to like have meetings with the the person that's on you know boots on the ground that's overseeing the renovation

15:38

and the purchases of the million dollars of equipment and the hiring of the staff I don't even need to know that person I

15:46

don't even you know this out of sight like I'm too busy you know with my day-to-day work you know I've got young

15:54

kids like uh I'm trying to build my Interventional Clinic like this Mamo yeah let's do it boom so where do I sign

16:01

you know that sort of that's all right so so the classic doctor

16:07

mistake you know that that you know I didn't nobody was like Hey you know you need you're about to make this classic

16:14

doctor mistake I you know it was until after well after the fact that you know

16:20

as I started to read more and learn more that yeah that that's what I did I just you know didn't know I was doing it of

16:26

course um but it's this combination of lack of formal teaching in in certain things

16:33

like like uh If you're sort of slanted towards a business entrepreneurial route earlier in college you're going to be

16:40

more inclined to hopefully you know getting get down that business pipeline you might start getting courses that

16:46

would really kind of give you some of those basic tools to analyze situations like that

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um and speak the language and know what to look for so um yeah I didn't so that was the recipe you

16:59

know ingredient a then ingredient B was that I didn't have any money throughout you know college med school residency my

17:06

whole you know basically now here I am in my you know early 30s 10 years after college and I finally have a good salary

17:12

and I've had a job for a few years and I have some money if I I have a little bit

17:18

of cash that I can throw at something and you know investment that sounds like a great opportunity and there's

17:24

respected individuals in my you know peer groups that are you know have been doing this for 20 years as a radiologist

17:31

that are also investing in it and it seem like they're doing good so so I I fell a victim to not doing my own due

17:38

diligence not having the right you know not not to make an excuse for myself but that but I think you know the lack of

17:44

formal teaching was an element of it to just to even look out for basic sort of red flags and then uh the the

17:51

combination of having some money and being busy at the same time where you make sort of quick yeah that's a

17:58

convenient decision and and yeah so it ended up you know we can get into the however much details or

18:05

not you want but it ended up you know not being a good investment and you know the business ultimately ended up being a

18:12

huge uh time um you know investment down the road as we

18:19

try to help it recover from what became you know uh what surface to be a you

18:26

know a impending doom and and we really as we tried to make it recover and put

18:31

more time and investment into it it sort of ultimately failed but um and I can talk more about that if you

18:39

like or not but but yeah that was the mistake yeah yeah I mean I I don't want

18:45

to open Old Wounds but I don't I don't mind talking about it it's fine yeah

18:51

but I but I am curious from you know making that mistake

18:58

how how did you kind of deal with it internally and kind of approach the next

19:04

investment opportunity because you did you know pursue a restaurant business with your with your brother-in-law who's

19:10

a chef and it is incredibly successful so what was it that got you kind of

19:16

internally and mentally and emotionally over that that first experience

19:23

uh you know it was hard on my family and and you know my wife and and just in

19:30

terms of uh the emotional stress of like realizing after the fact that I really

19:37

made a bad you know that that I did not do my due diligence put myself out there

19:42

like that um and then just the time commitment of trying to uh you know help a business

19:50

succeed is just uh you know it's just not something that that that uh it's not

19:55

gonna work unless you really put put your all into it and and that sort of that's something that I learned through

20:01

that process um at the end and was sort of like wow you know

20:07

yeah if I am going to do something like a business where I have to invest my money

20:14

I'm going to first of all know intimately the people that are

20:19

involved like you know that that um that is like the one of the most important

20:25

things you know um I was just listening uh to a talk at the

20:31

bevnet conference uh in Los Angeles we were there for the the new beverage

20:36

Showdown and uh was Cameron Diaz speaking and she was uh talking about her investment in

20:45

um uh his Tea Company and she was saying you know I bet on the uh jockey not the

20:51

horse and so she you know the the really the the person that was passionate behind it and working behind the scenes

20:58

and and you know knew that they were going to do some of the the things that that

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um some people aren't going to be willing to do uh go the extra mile and that's really important so I learned

21:09

that that is key and and investing as a financial partner with somebody uh you

21:15

need to know that they're gonna you know to go that extra mile when you know they're good they're going to stay late

21:21

if they need to and they're going to make some sacrifices that are going to be painful you know but they're not going to take the easy way

21:28

but in that process they're they're like appear in the sense that

21:34

you know there's rewards in making it through that pain like that if you don't

21:40

have a difficult path there really isn't much reward at the end and uh you know like an easy path is it's kind of boring

21:48

and you know not that fruitful so so anyway I knew uh that was kind of

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to just some of the stuff that I took away from it the big picture stuff and I

22:00

knew uh the with my brother-in-law Mikey you know he's he's uh an exceptional

22:05

person he's you know that was with him as a no-brainer of course I knew him you know better than most anybody and he's

22:12

right he's one of the hardest working people that I know he's like you know um if anything you know maybe go to the

22:19

too far right he's so passionate about his his work um and he's really talented chef and he

22:26

was uh already had established himself as somebody capable of doing it and

22:31

wanted to kind of make that next step where he was going to uh start open his

22:36

own restaurant so so my role in that was um you know it was really just that uh kind

22:43

of be somebody who uh could be a partner with him to help facilitate his him

22:49

taking that next step and be a partner help uh you know co-invest but also uh

22:55

just help find investors raise funds put together a plan take our time you know

23:01

help establish the the real estate piece of it in parallel get that ready to just

23:08

set up the business in a smart way that everything we could do to set it up for success and that would again going back

23:15

to the the failed Venture we had taken a massive amount um you know I think this

23:20

is useful for for people for listeners that you know another mistake that that

23:25

um I think we made was brand new medical equipment brand new

23:31

Imaging equipment you know the person that that made the decision to do that for us

23:37

um my fault for not being involved in the decisions but we we bought brand new

23:42

medical equipment but if you know it in medical equipment you can imagine how expensive the Imaging equipment like to

23:48

buy a brand new ultrasound machine that does biopsies or a brand new MRI you know that kind of stuff right a ton of

23:56

money and to buy it like as soon as it it's like a brand new car right it's it's not it doesn't go up and you know

24:03

it just goes down as soon as you drive it off the lot you know you so as soon as we put it in the office it just we

24:10

lost money boom right and what were we gaining by having this shiny equipment

24:15

like we we hadn't demonstrated that we needed that for to get new customers like we're actually in an area that that

24:22

needed more access so really what they just needed was access not anything fancy or shiny so so that right off the

24:29

bat there was a whole like debt lesson you know buying used equipment lesson you know not operating in debt first of

24:37

all so we went into the restaurant thing with with no debt you know make sure that except for the uh you know

24:43

investors but all the equipment every Mikey would buy all use you know he is so smart about all the expensive

24:50

equipment that goes into a restaurant to you know to buy use fix it up but but

24:56

boom you're paying you know you know 10 10 of what you know you

25:02

would have I'll find it new and and so just little things like that you know really helped with the decision-making

25:09

process going forward yeah no I think there's a there's a lot of wisdom in that and thank you for sharing because

25:15

one of the things that was popping my mind is you know the businesses are for

25:21

the Women's Health Clinic the the restaurant they're very kind of assets

25:27

heavy businesses right and so that that thinking about debt and thinking about

25:33

you know what's good enough versus buying the the shiny object that's a

25:39

really important lesson because I know when I have ideas I'd have the tendency to just like okay

25:45

what's what's the new cool tool that I can buy and use to kind of do this more effectively but

25:51

um being mindful about the capital I think makes a lot of sense yep yeah and it gives you a better

25:58

position I think to to um determine if you if you need to get news

26:06

new if you need to get more advanced newer equipment you you know you realize that once the other stuff is not meeting

26:13

your needs you know yeah so you can you can build off of it and it's it's just

26:19

less exposure you know uh from a capital perspective got it so so coming on to running lights

26:28

what was your what was your first action given the lessons that you've been learning what was the first thing you

26:35

did to uh start to start building running lights

26:40

the books in between you know trying to uh as as this process was going on it's

26:47

like get more and more interested in you know this sort of entrepreneurial side but again I wasn't thinking of myself as

26:54

an entrepreneur either just to sort of helping things along the way and realizing that I thought this stuff was

26:59

really cool like um uh you know doing things outside of

27:05

medicine but just that that sort of uh interested me um and so the first thing I did with

27:11

running lights as far as taking I guess the principal thing from what I learned was um

27:17

seeing if I could uh come up with a minimum viable product so

27:22

you know I wanted to ex put myself out there as little as possible in terms of

27:28

capital exposure like I was mentioned um I you know I had an idea I feel like

27:33

I identified a need or you know an uh I could also offer a good value

27:39

proposition to to a certain consumer segment and then come up with a product

27:45

that I felt like I wanted for myself that also matched with people you know like-minded people that would would uh

27:51

hopefully benefit from the drink and then um once I decided that I wanted to do it

27:56

I had to get my wife on board that was probably the most important thing you know he didn't say no so that was yeah

28:06

believe it or not believe it or not there's a that's that was the critical the limiting factor often for anything

28:15

in this household getting off the ground so she's sort of the gatekeeper but the

28:21

I have a lot of ideas that you know pop up and um a lot of things that I've considered

28:27

pursuing but you know you have to be selective with your time and what you think is you know so so we always have

28:33

discussions about that kind of thing and and uh so once I once we decided that that it was worth

28:39

um you know kind of taking more steps and putting risk because like you said the time for me uh time is very valuable

28:49

you know it's yeah yeah it's it's a time with my family and I could be working

28:57

more Radiology so so I have to balance that and um yeah so I wanted to to come up

29:03

with a minimum viable product I guess I would say that was probably the most beneficial item to that for your

29:09

listeners uh maybe to learn from would be if you have an idea

29:15

um and you think it's going to be useful and try to don't don't spend a ton of money uh trying to come up with some

29:22

with a prototype without talking to a lot of people first and coming up with your own bootleg prototype as close as

29:30

you can to what you think might be you know whether it's putting together you know uh stuff a compilation of things

29:37

that you have around your house or whatever it may be that that you can get to some sort of functional uh minimum

29:43

viable product that where you can get an assessment if people think will be useful or or willing to spend money on

29:50

and then you can sort of spend a little more money to to put yourself out there and move the ball forward and so I've

29:56

taken baby steps it's about a year and a half just to get to you know the the process where we're you know going into

30:02

stores and stuff but um yeah we're excited about it I think it's going to be it has a big potential

30:09

but um we're taking our time with it and trying to be smart

30:15

that's that's awesome there's there's two questions that pop in my head and I'm gonna write the second one down but

30:21

um I want to dive a little bit deeper into kind of this concept of MVP or minimum viable product given the fact

30:29

that you wanted to make a beverage right um and again you're not in this field

30:36

I'm curious about like how you broke down and figured out what your minimum

30:43

viable product actually was was it the formula was it the packaging was it like

30:49

figuring out okay what's the problem with the drinks that are in the gas stations now like how did you pinpoint

30:56

exactly okay this is the this is the least amount of work I have to do that someone

31:03

would reasonably actually say yeah I'll try it you know and I'll pay for it

31:08

right well it is a tricky with a beverage it is because you can't

31:15

um without spending you can't like walk around giving away free beverage that you've made you know

31:23

um and not be spending a lot of money so like finding somebody I think the the keys to me were like before doing uh

31:31

investing money um and without telling people hey I'm starting a beverage I'm making my own

31:36

beverage you know without just basically in conversations like you know when you're driving and and you you find

31:44

yourself at a gas station and you just look around and it's a sea of standard sodas and and high really excessively

31:51

caffeinated energy drinks and do you ever find yourself like wanting something that's a little more moderately caffeinated or you know just

31:57

having that conversation like and people like yeah yeah I do you know and just having that Converse over and over with

32:04

the same sort of you know you got it getting out more of an idea of the people that are more likely to to

32:11

have that response um you know somebody that drinks uh

32:16

regular soda all day every day isn't gonna say that but like there there's definitely I think a more thoughtful

32:22

consumer out there that that will drink sodas and will drink hot the standard energy drinks but also knows that it's

32:29

probably not great for them right or not the best option but they're like oh you know whatever it's it's fine I like it

32:37

but there's not a great alternative so my mindset was

32:43

um I I kind of felt like I was the idea was resonating with with a particularly

32:49

middle-aged males but also females like The Branding more so tends to be engaged

32:55

a little bit towards males and and females that don't want uh something too girly but but also there is a broader

33:03

appeal there but that's probably the core with the um and yeah I think that they they

33:11

trying to make an option that's uh desirable or uh cool

33:17

um it happens to be healthier without without overtly uh shoving Health down

33:23

somebody's throat I think is is probably in my mind the maybe the ultimately the

33:29

most effective way that I could contribute to to like population health is

33:35

um you know if I if I I think if I tell somebody if you tell somebody to do something healthier like it's the same

33:41

thing that as a doctor you encounter like in the clinic right when when we try to manage diabetes and hypertension

33:50

um you know somebody who's like constantly has their sugars High and the blood pressure is high and it's really a

33:56

struggle to get them to regularly take their medicine and like take you have to like step back and kind of take these

34:02

little small steps achievable goals right so that they can see some progress

34:07

and they can get a little traction you know if you just make this huge change and you're like you have to change your

34:13

lifestyle you have to you're all of a sudden you're going to be you know shooting yourself up with insulin all day you're going to be exercising

34:19

Non-Stop and you're going to be awesome right like nobody's gonna do that but um a small achievable goals I think was

34:26

that was at least what what I in my experience and what others have told me that you know that's sort of the the

34:32

best chance at a good outcome uh you know a compliance basically is what we

34:38

would call you know base getting people to take their medication and have a better result control

34:43

so I tried to extrapolate that in terms of you know what would be beneficial right

34:50

you can offer like there's zero calorie stuff out there there's uh there's a ton of it of course right zero sugar zero

34:56

everything and you can drink water um which a lot of people do and but then

35:02

there's the artificial sweeteners and all that stuff to get into that I've never liked so I didn't like that option

35:08

and I'm not somebody personally even as a physician who considers myself active

35:13

um and healthy try to be healthy like I don't need zero everything all the

35:18

time right I don't want that I don't either you know that to me that's too extreme I just I'm just kind of a more moderate person in that sense but

35:25

so the idea was to create a little bit of a middle of the road option that's a more stepwise option that makes it a

35:32

Cool brand it's also a stepwise you know way to maybe not have such an excessive

35:38

amount of sugar and caffeine and beverage and once I found that's a long way to answer your question

35:46

um but I think once I started getting traction with with that and then you

35:52

know some national recognition with the new beverage Showdown making that competition even though we hadn't even been in stores yet

35:59

um you know that was really I think that um you know I kind of knew that we were

36:05

onto something and willing to invest more money um and so it kept that's that's kind of

36:11

where we are now yeah no I I I I really like that because your MVP started with

36:19

something that cost no money which was conversations and like getting that validation from

36:25

conversations like yeah I've been in a situation where and you're like okay you got the head done okay let's let's try

36:32

to touch other people I think that that's a really that's really great tactical advice to

36:38

kind of get someone who's thinking about their idea and trying to figure out like oh but it costs so much money it's like

36:44

well before you do anything make sure you're actually solving a problem that enough people have yeah and

36:50

and your proposed solution is something that that population finds intriguing

36:57

and and I think you're right by looking at the options the options are very extreme like Coca-Cola and Coke Zero

37:05

tastes very different and if you don't like those options you know you're kind

37:10

of stuck in the middle where it's like ah what do I do okay I'll just go with water

37:15

um and not be satisfied so I like I like the fact that you you kind of also looked at the extremes and kind

37:22

of found out found the uh um the the middle ground I think that that's

37:28

also sorry to ramble I think it's also interesting because you're not only in the middle ground but

37:36

you recognize that you had something that appealed a little bit more to men but you also saw that there was an

37:43

opportunity for women but you didn't want it to be super girly and so when I

37:49

look at your site and I look at your brain like it does give me like a good middle of the road feel because The

37:55

Pastels I would imagine would attract um you know the women audience but then

38:02

also kind of the Andre Agassi feel gives that kind of Rogue man you know uh the

38:09

male appeal so I I like it I um thank you yeah go back to MVP once

38:16

once the conversational side you know then then it was sort of investing a little bit and well let's get a drink

38:22

and make sure that I can get one that tastes good because ultimately I think if it doesn't taste good it's probably

38:28

gonna never you know it's not gonna be something that people are gonna come

38:33

back to even though I would argue that there's a lot of drinks out there that that are actually uh decent that doing

38:41

well that that aren't that great tasting but but anyway I wanted something that tastes good and so I you know to to get

38:49

to more of a real MVP you know other than a conversation invested that money

38:54

that was still in the grand scheme of things you could spend uh is you'd be

39:00

proud may or may not be surprised but you could spend a lot of money formulating trying to come up with the

39:06

formulations and and like paying companies to do it or whatever however you come in or you know some people try

39:12

to do it in their garage or whatever but uh so anyway I I was able to find a

39:18

strike a good balance of not over putting myself out there too much but getting the flavors and the combination

39:25

of ingredients how we wanted uh which were really unique and and in a sense

39:30

that um you know we put whey protein in the drink small amounts of it which is

39:35

the only kind of carbonated caffeinated beverage of its kind that does that and so

39:41

there's a there's a technical challenge of barriers that we had to overcome to be able to do that and make it scalable

39:49

and all that stuff so um yeah that was the next step of a real kind of MVP was having people taste it

39:56

and getting feedback of people liking it before then you know going all into The Branding and everything like that and

40:02

that was sort of done alongside as we moved along um but yeah you mentioned the Agassi

40:09

thing I think like my the consumer you know it's kind of like The Branding is

40:15

you know if you liked Tony Hawk or if you liked Andre Agassi or if you like Swatch back in the day or still do or

40:22

you know or uh Santa Cruz or you know those those types of brands or Motocross

40:29

even um you know you'll sort of be gen instinctively I think drawn to the

40:37

the the style and we're we're kind of adjusting our labels a little bit too to

40:42

bring the the RL logo a little bit out more in that sort of uh almost in like a

40:48

90s way to Motocross type way too um but anyway yeah I like the idea of

40:55

pulling in the Nostalgia it's like every time you mention Tony Hawk I think about the video game where you just smash the

41:00

buttons and he's just kind of doing all the kind of tricks but I do like like no

41:06

I I see it it is it is pretty cool um so so one thing I'm also curious

41:13

curious about is kind of this currency of time right

41:19

um you have a very demanding profession um you have kind of a beautiful family

41:25

that you want to spend time with um you're starting this company and

41:32

it's in a very different field right it's very different industry very

41:37

different space and so I'm curious about how you go about deciding what are the

41:43

things that I need to Double Down read books and learn versus things that I need to find people to do and kind of

41:49

hire someone that's smarter in that area for to to accomplish a task or to play that role

41:55

hmm yeah um that's a lot um yeah the the time thing is a big one

42:04

I I think like I alluded to before uh you know it's it's critical because the

42:10

kids are young the families uh pulls you in a lot of directions and which is

42:16

important and and the balance uh is key and I think

42:21

um my personality is I could you know I can get consumed by some of this stuff

42:27

and spend a lot of time uh just sort of you know getting into it so so deep and

42:33

passionately that that you can um kind of lose sight of some of that so I try I try not to and my kids are just

42:41

the you know the best reminder than anything just when I see them you know we have a great time together

42:46

we we do you know that's uh the funnest thing you know that I do is just playing with my kids and hanging out and and

42:53

I've tried to come try to do things in a different way especially since covered with where

43:00

um can incorporate some of this learning process that I'm

43:06

going through with them you know to try to try to give them a little bit it's a

43:12

combination of tea try to teach them a little bit of information and also spend

43:17

time with them at the same you know same time so like the whole beverage thing they've been

43:24

involved with the every every iteration of a taste and a flavor they've they've

43:31

tried them all they've been right there along with us like you know very important in terms of you know just

43:37

being supportive and like hey you know just so they're part of it uh the whole

43:43

process whether it was that but going back to the restaurant with my brother-in-law Mikey Mexico

43:51

you know they they were uh you know they just love the restaurant love following

43:56

following him and being part of that process and just sort of uh uh so they

44:02

they've learned a lot in terms of you know even even going back we have pictures of them

44:07

sitting at the construction site when it was an old gas station that was like

44:13

graffitied up and closed down and and you can imagine like it had the the

44:19

typical gas station uh roof with the the abandoned pump so we have pictures of

44:26

them sitting at the before it got renovated and so they've sort of seen that whole transformation that you can

44:31

take something you know and just you know this was his idea to make it a

44:37

restaurant would turn to old gas station into a you know like a staple in the community and Mikey did that his talents

44:44

so um they've seen that they've seen that you know their crazy dad sometimes you

44:50

might have just an idea that he thinks was interesting or worth pursuing but but didn't necessarily do it in a you

44:57

know like uh an off the hook fashion but there was some there was a process there

45:02

to try to investigate things and we you know we created something that from an idea and then can actually get to the

45:08

point where some people want to purchase your product that you made my daughter like she makes bracelets she makes

45:14

jewelry she wants to know like sell things on Etsy and that kind of thing so like you know they just um

45:21

they think about things I think maybe in that way and I think it's helpful but so

45:27

hopefully that answered the question a little bit no for sure it's

45:32

funny because it also triggered another question in my mind and you sort of answered it is as your kids are growing

45:38

up and being very involved in your business and seeing what what that's doing do you see the kind of

45:46

entrepreneurial juices starting to flow as they start getting older and and I I think about

45:53

that because growing up to two parents that were in business

45:59

um I know that I have a kind of a bent towards business

46:05

um even even after my hoop dreams failed I always knew I was gonna get into get

46:11

into business and so I'm curious with your kids you know do you have that feeling where it's like yeah I can kind

46:16

of see I can see the little mini entrepreneurs building yeah I think so um I I don't know if it

46:23

has anything to do with me like as far as this stuff that I've you know we've done the last 10 years or maybe it has

46:29

maybe I it's hard to know how much of it is you know intrinsic versus that but but I

46:36

know like myself like you mentioned it's interesting you say that you were you know like yeah I want to do business

46:42

like for me that was never a thought that I that I really had it was all like my uh

46:48

you know not that one is better or or not it was just more of like uh Health Care maybe maybe Healthcare kind of

46:56

position like that but never thought of like yeah I would start my own Healthcare business or my own Physical

47:02

Therapy Clinic or something yeah you just work as a you know work as a this you know not right right start a this

47:09

you know so um yeah my dad was a math teacher you know for 40 plus years and

47:15

my mom was a nurse for the same you know that that's very like dedicated and

47:21

um working in in their you know industry but not so much like you know starting a

47:26

business but so that wasn't necessarily something that was natural uh to me to think that way so now that my kids who I

47:34

am seeing you know it seems more natural especially to my daughter she's like inclined to want to sell things which is

47:41

interesting I think make something and sell it and she's she'll say like things like she wants to run her store someday

47:49

and like you know have a shop you know she said that multiple um occasions that

47:54

she wants to have her own shop and um yeah I don't know with her I would not surprise me at all I think she

48:01

probably will see some type of owner of some shop or restaurant or product I

48:07

don't know my son is uh he's really into games you know and and uh video games

48:14

and YouTube that kind of thing so um you know he's he wants to be a video

48:21

game maker so he wants to design and build video games you know he's he's

48:27

only eight years old but like he's uh it wouldn't surprise me and I think and I

48:32

think maybe that's also you know again it sort of seems a little entrepreneurial that he could someday

48:38

you know try to make his own game but um I don't know if it has anything to do with what what we've done at home but

48:45

they're interesting kids no man it's it's awesome I always I'm

48:52

I'm you know I've got a 10 month old and I'm I'm consciously thinking about like

48:58

when he starts seeing daddy being a maniac about this business thing what's he gonna what's what's he gonna

49:05

accidentally kind of kind of bring on what are the things I need to be mindful of so

49:10

um but no that's really cool that that's really cool that she already knows she wants to own a store and she's already

49:16

kind of trying to sell those bracelets yeah it's kind of fun you know

49:21

um I I always wondered like what kind of impact when I was working really long hours as

49:28

a at the hospital when I was doing that other job um because of my daughter she'll still be like

49:33

yeah oh we never you know we never saw you or whatever you know she'll still make little comments like that so what

49:40

one thing she has not said that for better for horses that yeah I want to be a radiologist or

49:46

I want to go into medicine or something like that so I think uh you know the the

49:52

the the the working like being away has an impact and it's real I think that um

50:00

whether or not I choose to admit how much of you know I they they seem to pick up on it and you know she was at

50:06

the age where um right before the pandemic I was still working

50:12

a lot um at the hospital and being home really late hours after missing dinner every day and that kind of thing and um yeah

50:20

so but then I switched jobs and and tried to open up things where I could get in uh purposeful changes that I made

50:28

basically to my career so that I could spend more time with them and also

50:33

pursue other Ventures that I was starting to get interested in and so uh just for more creative Outlets like I

50:40

felt like I was just hyper focused on uh you know my profession and building that

50:46

and and that but I had a lot of uh outside interests that had been suppressed and for example I wasn't even

50:52

playing tennis anymore um you know just that kind of thing so she'll every once in a while make

50:59

comments like oh yeah you know we you were never how you you would never

51:04

sort of thing so so that sticks but you know you kind of remember that and try to try

51:10

to stay uh grounded and balanced with that because yeah it's a real thing so

51:17

yeah no I I I I I completely understand yeah I I do a very

51:25

similar thing getting out of Consulting it was like it's Pace pays well it's really good I'm

51:32

somehow pretty decent at this thing but I need to make a conscious decision to give myself the space to be able to

51:40

pursue things on my own time and um get out of that tunnel vision so I

51:46

completely understand um hopefully hopefully uh this kid

51:52

hopefully things get steadier by the time he start having core memories that's my goal I have a little bit more

51:59

control yeah yeah I'm sure I'm sure he'll uh yeah

52:06

he's 10 months old he's 10 months old yeah 10 months okay yeah yeah you got plenty plenty of time there exactly

52:14

all right well I want to be respectful of time so let's hit some some concluding questions that I ask every

52:19

guest um first what books would you recommend to other

52:25

entrepreneurs one off the bat that comes to mind that

52:31

I enjoyed and going back to the uh discussion of the MVP and that type of

52:36

thing and sort of identifying me with it would be a sea solve and scale by Danny warshay

52:43

um he's at the brown entrepreneurial interview and um so I think that's kind of a good

52:49

um you know even for like people beginning it could be like a beginner introductory

52:57

level book again for me I was trying to just look at beginner you know when I

53:05

when I approach starting to read books on the topics I was approaching it as a beginner

53:11

um even though you know I kind of had some experience with other stuff I didn't really I wanted to reverse back

53:16

and sort of learn what what I could have and then see how it applied in

53:22

retrospect to those different things so so that that was a good one um and just

53:27

also um it's not not necessarily an entrepreneurial book but one that I found useful in terms of thinking about

53:34

uh branding and just just sort of coming up with ideas in general and is made to

53:42

stick by the the heath Brothers is just kind of an interesting read and I like their books in general and that's kind

53:48

of one that that I have liked and uh tried to actually

53:54

um you know think of when I'm coming up with branding ideas uh things that that

54:01

they talk about you know of course like being emotion and uh things that make it

54:07

stick in general um you know we talk about but that's in for you know useful information I think

54:12

you know trying to make things emotionable emotional uh relatable and concrete at the same time but also

54:21

um credible there's a combination of things they they go through and I think they're just

54:26

kind of useful to break down so those are two that this is kind of off the top of my head that are useful awesome just

54:32

another spin to this question um for other folks in the medical field that

54:42

may be kind of intentionally unintentionally leaning

54:47

into kind of entrepreneurial Ventures are there any books podcasts or you know

54:54

forms of media that you'd recommend there's um

55:00

I'm forgetting it the uh I think it's a physician on fire

55:07

um f-i-r-e like financially independent recover retire

55:12

early that's one that that um he's a popular podcast that just in

55:18

terms of thinking of doctor finances he goes uh discusses a lot about

55:25

um staying out of ways that you can avoid taking on debt and and get your

55:30

life in control take control of your life and your time and and if you have interest in doing things outside of

55:37

medicine there's a sort of uh maybe a good way to look at sort of getting control of your your your time and your

55:44

profession and not getting into uh the traps of trying to

55:50

um keep up with the Joneses with the doctor lifestyle and spend a lot of money on

55:55

everything and you know if you want to be able to control your life and get into entrepreneurialism without getting into it's kind of debt you know that's

56:03

kind of a good way to uh you know not necessarily retire early and all that but it's just sort of a financial

56:09

control mentality that that if you if you can get control of that because we

56:14

myself and a lot of other Physicians of course have

56:19

um you know massive and Professionals in general across all all grad schools especially you know

56:26

um massive amount of student debt right so um it's a really important topic that

56:32

you can't get control and me personally I didn't even like my main goal is they

56:37

you know get rid of my student debt like I wasn't going to make some huge financial although I did make that that

56:43

other mistake that I talked about with student debt but if I had to do it over

56:48

and after that I made sure I had okay get my student debt paid off before you

56:54

know any big Venture you because I mean you could really put yourself out there

56:59

at risk with student debt then you add up a big investment in some venture

57:06

outside of medicine or in medicine that you know so that that would be a good

57:12

additional advice yeah appreciate that um what question do you think I should

57:18

ask the next guest hmm that's a tough question I I think

57:25

that uh I would be I would be interested personally to know like how how much uh

57:33

you know other people are willing to um give up like

57:39

personal um uh go into debt for these Ventures that

57:46

that they're interested in and give up their how much of them would rather give up much of their company to see the the

57:53

idea succeed versus like maintain uh you know more ownership of their company I

57:59

think there's an interesting topic there of like you know how much Equity of your company or your baby do you want to give

58:07

up in order to see It ultimately get over the hump and make it a success with

58:13

the capital that really funding that it needs and that sort of thing but to get there you have to you know maybe even

58:19

give it all up down the road or half of it so I think as a that would be one

58:25

topic to explore more that we didn't really get into but yeah let no the question of debt

58:32

financing versus like kind of equity financing that's really interesting so I'm curious I always do this you've got

58:38

to answer your own question how what are your thoughts on it well yeah I'm Expo I'm I'm doing a

58:46

personal exploration now of that and um you know we'll see how we'll see how

58:52

that shakes out I mean I think um you know I'm not like

58:58

I'm not gonna like fall the I wouldn't want to let the product and the idea Fall by the wayside and let

59:05

myself get him get in the way of myself you know if It ultimately required giving up whatever it might be

59:12

the control and the I you know the ownership that to to you know if that was the thing that needed to happen to

59:19

make it go on and be ultimately more successful than I'm hey that that's okay

59:26

um so I think I would you know I'm open to it but I also have this thing where I'd be uh you know you still want to be

59:33

involved this person I'm not at this point yet with our

59:38

company because we're too small I think but like um you know down the road hearing that discussion and about you know uh the

59:46

founder CEO dilemma um you know is is something that I will you know be encountering probably sooner

59:54

maybe than others because I am a practicing radiologist and I you know I am I still have a full-time job so like

1:00:01

the interesting topic another one that that would be kind of worth asking

1:00:06

another entrepreneur would be one that you know full time when they started another job and then and you yourself

1:00:12

could speak on this be interesting to hear because I know you were kind of in a different profession and you've made

1:00:18

that leap to to do the podcast and and do the um yensl and all and so

1:00:25

that there is this like you know sort of one's going this way the other is you

1:00:31

know going full steam ahead and and maybe so like for me I kind of tapered down Radiology to make more time for for

1:00:38

running lights um and you know at some point I'm gonna have to make a decision for this success

1:00:45

of both of those things I can't put everything into everything all the time so like uh is it going to be you know I

1:00:53

you know that that's a whole nother podcast that you can talk about you know do you want to be the CEO do you want to

1:00:59

um give up your your other career do you not give up your career until you replace your you made a deal with

1:01:06

yourself where you can replace your income or at least maybe half of it or because there's a there's you know a

1:01:12

financial sacrifice that you know probably most entrepreneurs make when they're unless they're just coming into

1:01:17

a ton of money but like uh where the you know you're gonna have to make that

1:01:24

transition where you might have a gap of exposure vulnerability or difference in

1:01:30

lifestyle or where you your risk ratio is different where where how your

1:01:36

tolerance of what you're going to bring in versus taking that Leap of Faith with trying to

1:01:42

build the other thing that well may look stupid because I have a secure job that makes money but you know this has

1:01:49

potential so that's an interesting discussion I think yeah no I think you're you're spot on because I think

1:01:57

I think everybody that starts a side Hustle or something on the side has this

1:02:04

question of like at what point do I leap and you're right it's the some of the simple answers are you know wait until I

1:02:10

can replace my income but a lot of times it's not that easy because sometimes your business idea

1:02:17

is time is important right so understanding

1:02:23

the time and space of like is this the opportunity to strike and like go all in

1:02:29

because there's a market opportunity you've got to factor that in and can you

1:02:34

sustain have you built yourself a long enough wrong way so um yeah you're right it's a it's a very

1:02:39

important topic and actually but one of these days um along with my co-founders I'll be on

1:02:47

my own podcast which is kind of weird um and that that is very much a topic that I want to talk about it's like

1:02:54

um I don't know if it's the right decision but there's there was a lot of I'd probably say

1:03:00

at least six months of like strategizing in my mind of like when's that kind of

1:03:05

ramp down ramp up how what's my Runway oh crap in the middle of it I found out

1:03:11

my wife was pregnant okay so now we've gotta redraw this whole thing so

1:03:17

um so yeah no it is it is a it is at least an hour-long conversation for sure

1:03:23

um I think the the runway the runway conversation is also very interesting like

1:03:29

you know Wendy how long is the long enough Runway um yeah you know you always say like one

1:03:36

of the most common failures for small businesses is not enough capital and basically enough runway in the beginning

1:03:43

and so um having somebody smarter than me talk about how you figure out the right

1:03:50

Runway would be useful for me absolutely

1:03:55

well Jason this has been awesome um tell people where they can find running lights before we wrap

1:04:03

well running lights right now is uh you can find um and taste the uh taste chain of taste

1:04:10

stores in Virginia uh apparently a Halls grocer and

1:04:16

um we'll be coming to multiple stores also in Virginia and in the Southeast uh

1:04:21

very soon and hopefully um even you know we have

1:04:28

um Earth's sites set high for broader distribution and uh we got hit the

1:04:35

ground running here with production and ramping up in January so

1:04:40

it's awesome thank you first get it on the website also runninglightsbeverage.com

1:04:45

awesome well congratulations I'm excited for the full-blown production I'm going

1:04:51

to buy a case later today um but thank you for your time and I appreciate it it's been fun you're

1:04:57

welcome thanks for having me I really enjoyed it and it's good talking to you absolutely